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Author Topic: Heh, Dick Cheney
Colonel Panic
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
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Icon 1 posted February 15, 2006 18:03      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'll get good and gun geeky in a minute, but first this word from my conscience:

From time to time, the conduct of the far right has me repeating Joseph Welch's admonition to Senator Joseph McCarthy, "Have you no shame?"

For some people the issue is never right or wrong, but instead, right or left. It is worrisome that there are people who would cast aside morality for the cult-of-personality that passes for conservatism anymore.

I applaud the conservatives here who have held true to their gun-safety roots and admonish those who have chosen to blame the victim here. "You pull the trigger, you're responsible" is the way things have always been for me. Garlic Guy is right, to do anything else is to cast gun responsibility aside and cast gun owners as kooks. I get ill when that happens.

I've been shooting for over 40 years, was a certified Expert Marksman by the age of 11, and had shot over 3,000 different firearms by the age of 12. No way that would have happened if I were as irresponsible as some would approve in here. They are not welcome in my duck blind or on my grouse, quail or pheasant hunts. I like life too much for that.

I have experienced one act of carelessness while hunting. My buddies succomed to stories of experience and allowed a moron on the hunt. Nobody was hurt. The gun in question lies at the bottom of a deep lake, and the moron in question left the hunt with a bootprint on his butt.

Now, let's get geeky about this, shall we? Here are some facts.

Cheney's victim, it is reported, had over 200 pellets in his thoracic area and neck.

There are 307 pellets in a 28-ga. 3/4-ounce load, which is, with very, very few exceptions the load chosen for quail at this guage.

At the reported 30-yards, there is no way any choke -- let alone the recommended choke for this kind of hunting-- would allow over 200 pellets in this kind of area described. The shot pattern is more consistent with a shot taken at around 10 yards. (Mind you that is 2/3 of the shots penetrating thick clothing and the skin in a 2-ft. area.)

The report of the victim being "peppered" with shot is not an accurate depiction. And so is the report of a heart attack caused by pellets being carried to the heart by an artery. Arteries are too small for this to happen. The pellet penetrated the chest cavity and entered the heart muscle. This again points to a very close shot.

We haven't been told the truth about what happened and this is wrong.

Drinking was involved. The Vice President has admitted to this. In this kind of situation, any admission of drinking is cause for law enforcment to seek a BAC test. Cheney refused by first having the Secret Service ask law enforcement to delay until the next day, and then turning law enforcment away when they visited the ranch that night.

Had you, I, or Rodney King refused such a request, we would have been beaten like a drum at a Gene Krupa concert.

Any shooting is a public matter any time a gunshot victim is admitted to any hospital in this country. It is also a matter of public investigation to take a BAC of the victim in this circumstance. The hospital has refused to release the results of this test. That is suspicious, because it is part of a public investigation. "Aks" any gansta rapper who has been through the drill, he'll tell you.

The reports by the allleged witness, and owner of the ranch, don't hold up to scrutiny. She has implied she witnessed the event, yet describes that her first reaction was that the victim had a heart attack. A gunshot accident does not look like or sound like a heart attack. She was not present at the accident.

False reports, deception, refusal of BAC tests. Resisting law enforcement.

Dick Cheney's admission today that he is responsible because he pulled the trigger is self-serving: he's only towing the line of one of his 's partylargest campaign contributors, the NRA. It's a good line, one he should have owned up to days ago.

Right now, there are still way too many questions left unanswered.

Colonel Panic

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ChildeRoland
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Icon 1 posted February 15, 2006 20:48      Profile for ChildeRoland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The media is playing the speculation game, which is part of their job especially given that the people holding the bulk (the highest level of Gov't) of the information have bald faced lied to the media and public before and for reasons that have caused tens of thousands of deaths.
And your evidence is where?

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted February 15, 2006 21:53      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:
And your evidence is where? [/QB]

Oh jesus.

Here and here for starters.

Look Childe, weve been down this road a billion times, even the President admits to 'misleading' the public and drawing them int a war. Feel free to peruse the archives on your free time.

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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Erbo
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted February 15, 2006 23:29            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'll mention what Professor Glenn Reynolds had to say about the media coverage:
quote:
It's possible to make fun of the press's self-involvement here, and it's hilarious to hear -- as I did in the car on the way home just now -- Hillary Clinton complaining about this Administration's secretiveness, as if we'd forgotten the health care task force, the Rose Law Firm billing records, etc. But nonetheless, Cheney screwed up bigtime.

Anyone can have an accident, and absent, you know, actual facts there's not much to say about the actual shooting (though as Kurtz notes, that hasn't stopped some people from proposing theories as if they were fact). But they've played to everybody's characterization of them, and it's the classic political mistake of not responding quickly.

That said, it's also a classic example of the press's instinct for the capillary. This is getting Natalee Holloway level coverage, when there's lots of more important stuff going on.

My sentiments exactly.

And now, I'm going to shut the hell up in this thread, as it's obvious it's turned into another God-damned liberal echo chamber. Enjoy the circle-jerk, libs.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted February 15, 2006 23:46      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:

And now, I'm going to shut the hell up in this thread, as it's obvious it's turned into another God-damned liberal echo chamber. Enjoy the circle-jerk, libs.

Shouldn't you be watching figure skating....or inflating your love doll?

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2006 07:32      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:


Cheney's victim, it is reported, had over 200 pellets in his thoracic area and neck.


Colonel,
I've not seen this information elsewhere. If accurate, your other conclusions relative to the actual range, etc. are also accurate. Added to that, I can't help thinking there are two other possible factors that fairly leap to my speculative fancy while not being mentioned in the news.

Would you mind sharing your source on the pellet count?

As an aside, Cheney needs to do the honorable thing and step down. Enough is enough - no matter one's political or social leanings. For those that think Mr. Bush is a disaster sitting on the throne, imagine what this buffoon would consider good policy. Yikes.

(I type this at my computer some 80 miles south of a very soft section of the US/Canada border and check out the weather reports for the Vancouver area.)

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted February 16, 2006 09:37      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Didn't everyone know Cheney is running for office in 2008?

When he uses the slogan "I shot a lawyer," that's going to give him 49% of the popular vote.

#include sarcasm.h
    ... Yep, this is probably the most important story in the galaxy....

Another theory: For every $1 of small arms ammunition spent on the elderly, $900,000 can be saved in Medicare.

I wouldn't mind the conspiracy theories here, except they're based on ignoring the blatantly obvious.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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ewomack
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2006 11:48      Profile for ewomack   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am also interested in where some of the info in this thread came from. Please quote sources. This is becoming as complicated as the Kennedy Assassination. Who did what? Who was where? How many pellets? What was the distance? My head aches.

I see Cheney fans saying "anyone can screw up" and excusing the whole incident as a "liberal created" non-event (which is I'm sure what Cheney would prefer), and Cheney detractors saying "something evil this way comes" and possibly blowing the story out of proportion. Providing sources helps remove the charge of biased information.

And, though I usually refrain from referring to other users directly, I feel really sorry for Erbo living under the constructed and false veil of the "liberal threat". I have this to say: there is no liberal threat. Liberals are not organized. They're too busy listening to public radio, reading books, or discussing green pre-fab housing schemes to have too much influence in a government or a society that seems remote to them. If they were organized the world would be a better place. Now the Christian Coalition and the Evangelicals. Whoa. Now those people are ORGANIZED. Whoooo! The liberals are just a mere poot! on the radar compared to that huge pulsating miasma.

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Ed Womack
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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2006 14:21      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I haven't paid too much attention to this story, so I haven't formed an opinion, although Colonel Panic's comments on shot-loads and choke patterns sounds reasonable to me.

What I wanted to say it simply this....

...we would have been beaten like a drum at a Gene Krupa concert..... [Applause] [Applause]

/me goes to get his "Drum Battle" CD [Big Grin]

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2006 16:37      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ewomack:
And, though I usually refrain from referring to other users directly, I feel really sorry for Erbo living under the constructed and false veil of the "liberal threat". I have this to say: there is no liberal threat. Liberals are not organized. They're too busy listening to public radio, reading books, or discussing green pre-fab housing schemes to have too much influence in a government or a society that seems remote to them. If they were organized the world would be a better place. Now the Christian Coalition and the Evangelicals. Whoa. Now those people are ORGANIZED. Whoooo! The liberals are just a mere poot! on the radar compared to that huge pulsating miasma.

Really? I would say that the gay/lesbian movement would be equivalent to evangelicals in size and level of organization.

I don't believe there's any more of a "liberal threat" than a "conservative threat." Both technically exist, but tend to balance each other out over the long term.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2006 17:53      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Really? I would say that the gay/lesbian movement would be equivalent to evangelicals in size and level of organization.

Hahaha! I assume you are joking, but if not please tell me what evidence you have for this absurd claim, to what extent they have influenced policy decisions etc etc.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2006 22:44      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
Really? I would say that the gay/lesbian movement would be equivalent to evangelicals in size and level of organization.

Hahaha! I assume you are joking, but if not please tell me what evidence you have for this absurd claim, to what extent they have influenced policy decisions etc etc.
What evidence can I give? My comment is as subjective as the one I was responding to. How do you measure the power and level of organization of a group? Is it just the amount of legislation pushed through? Is it the number of TV shows and movies that share their ideology? The number of official members they have? How about the amount of money their coffers? If a group has a large amount of power in particular regions, does it follow that they are powerful nationwide?

One side of the spectrum has a bit of an edge right now. It doesn't mean they are significantly larger or better organized than the opposition.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted February 17, 2006 01:01      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part I: What constitutes a threat? Organization?

I hate to bust bubbles, but organization is not necessary for something to be a threat.

As an example, AIDS doesn't have a union or a mission statement. People aren't joining organizations for the purpose of getting or spreading AIDS. Can apathy cause people to be a threat to themselves and others? Yes.

Organized or not, there are people who accept being "spoon-fed" their priorities by the media. As an example, Global Warming [Roll Eyes] AAAIIIGH! AAIIGH!!! OH GOD WE'RE ALL DOOMED! THE EARTH IS LIKE SO 10 MINUTES AGO!!! (In fine print: 300 years from now....)

The "media" generates Hysteria over "Global Warming" while turning a blind eye to something like water pollution.

If I "didn't know any better," I would think that the media doesn't want to talk about water pollution because China, the member states of the old USSR, and India are "guilty," but I guess the media "doesn't want to hurt their feelings." [shake head] Every year 5 to 10 million people die from water related problems, but the media doesn't seem very concerned since it's difficult to blame the US for water related deaths in China, India, and so forth.

Part II: The "Liberal Media"

Apparently "their" rule of thumb is: If It Can't Be Blamed on America or the Republicans, It's Not Really a Problem.

This would explain why the UN involvement related to 800,000 dead in Rwanda wasn't really, really bad. Or for Saddam to kill 300,000 and violate UN sanctions by selling $9 billion of oil on the black market doesn't mean that anyone should have taken actions against him. Or that Russians and Chinese buying black market oil from Saddam was an innocent mistake rather than support for a murdering tyrant. A Saudi imam demands that all who published the cartoons depicting Mohammed be tried in court and punished by (Islamic) law? Come on, everybody executes blasphemers.

Part III: Reason to Step Down?
quote:
Cheney needs to do the honorable thing and step down.
Just curious, if someone had been "vice president" of Iraq, and let's say he ordered chemical weapons attacks on some villages, and suppose 80,000 Kurds died.

Would you insist on "that vice president" stepping down? Or do you think a public apology would suffice? Is wounding a 78 year-old lawyer with birdshot worse than killing 80,000 people?

Maybe I didn't read the news about Saddam turning his life around. Did he change his party affiliation to "Democrat" and volunteer for Greenpeace Community Service Programs?

Part IV: Cheney's Got a Gun

The sources I've seen says Cheney and Whittington were friends, so the logical conclusion is that it was an accident. Then again, (SARCASM) maybe Whittington was shot 430 times with an M61A1 "Vulcan" rotary cannon, and the Secret Service destroyed the evidence so it would look like some form of rare insect bites, and maybe they used a "face transplant" to hide Whittington's death!

Having been a motorcycle rider, my personal opinion is that old people are dangerous. This is in part due to an experience where (what appeared to be) a blue-haired corpse resting its nose on the steering wheel of a yellow Cadillac going 60mph proceeded to drift into my lane and force me to ride in the grassy median. Old people have slower reflexes, and their vision and hearing get worse with time. (Cheney suffered his first heart attack at age 37 in 1978.)
quote:
In Texas, there were 30 accidents and two hunting deaths last year, according to the state Parks and Wildlife Department.
    -- Forbes Magazine

It's an accident involving old people. Get over it.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 06:05      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
> Open the mailbox.

Opening the mailbox reveals a smallish bag of troll bait.

> Take bait.

Taken.

> Kindle bag of troll bait with match.

It bursts into flame. In the distance you hear a magpie squawking its fool head off. You chuckle, lie down, and go to sleep.

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 08:38      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
> Open the mailbox.

Opening the mailbox reveals a smallish bag of troll bait.

> Take bait.

Taken.

> Kindle bag of troll bait with match.

It bursts into flame. In the distance you hear a magpie squawking its fool head off. You chuckle, lie down, and go to sleep.

[Applause] [Applause] [Applause]
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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 09:27      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmm... and here I thought ASM was spot-on.

I mean, seriously, old guys go hunting all the time. Some of them make stupid mistakes. Just 'cause Cheney's the VP doesn't mean he needs to be perfect (or has a higher expectation of perfect). When was the last time you made a stupid mistake? I know I'm just glad I didn't have millions of people watching me, so give the old guy some grace, aye?

(So what if he's the VP? He's still just an old guy with a gun!)

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 09:31      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[shake head]

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 09:36      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Hmm... and here I thought ASM was spot-on.

I'll refrain from responding to the rest of your post as to escalate the matter in this thread even more.

Most of us have just stopped reading ASM's posts altogether. We see the letters 'asm' followed by a bunch of numbers, and go automatically to the next quote.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 09:52      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Y'know Rhonnie, last year there was a teenage boy who made a stupid mistake with a car. As a result, a bicyclist died and the kid is facing jail time. Last year there was a group of teens who did something stupid with fireworks a burned a whole hillside. No homes were lost, but it was a close call. Those teens are also facing jail time.

When someone gets killed, or hospitalized, it's not just a stupid mistake anymore.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 10:02      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
X: Yeah, but is the national media calling for that guy to never appear in public again and dragging all his dirty laundry into the public eye?

Yes, it's serious business when someone gets hurt, but there's a reason our criminal system has levels of charges for death: homicide, manslaughter 1, manslaughter 2, etc. Some are pre-planned, and some are truly accidents. Accidents will happen. Anytime you have people involved, particularly with deadly weapons, the chances that someone will get hurt are increased. Especially if alcohol's involved. I have no doubt Cheney is freaked out and scared that he hit this guy and almost killed him. And unless he's completely unwise in his old age, he'll think twice before being so careless if he ever goes hunting again.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 11:08      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Hmm... and here I thought ASM was spot-on.

I'll refrain from responding to the rest of your post as to escalate the matter in this thread even more.

Most of us have just stopped reading ASM's posts altogether. We see the letters 'asm' followed by a bunch of numbers, and go automatically to the next quote.

Well...most of the time anyway. Sometimes he writes stuff that is actually coherent -- as though it was him writing it, not the lack of meds and/or fscked up AI. But in this thread, I saw a bunch of paragraphs, and emboldened titles with section numbers, and I exclaimed "Oh Dear ___" and scrolled down quickly.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 12:11      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
X: Yeah, but is the national media calling for that guy to never appear in public again and dragging all his dirty laundry into the public eye?

Well, the kids weren't public figures to begin with. But yeah, they got their stories told.

The kid who killed the cyclist was an honor student at a local high school. His parents left town and he threw a party. He was up all night. He didn't do any drinking, but his buddies did and he was driving them home when he fell asleep at the wheel. The biker died at the scene. There was a lot of controversy of how badly the kid should be punished given that he was otherise a "good boy".

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 13:09      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oooh...this one is *rich*
http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/2006/02/rumsfeld-us-losing-war-for-hearts-and.html

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Grey_girl

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 13:26      Profile for Grey_girl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Just 'cause Cheney's the VP doesn't mean he needs to be perfect (or has a higher expectation of perfect).

<snip>

(So what if he's the VP? He's still just an old guy with a gun!)

Actually, because he is one of the leaders of this country, he does, IMO, have a higher expectation placed in his behavior than non-public figure. He should show integrity by being the model of what to do, not what not to do.

If we gave "grace" to public figures who made stupid mistakes, the Republicans wouldn't have roasted Clinton over Monica Lewinsky. Is grace only given when it's convenient? IIRC, one of the charges by Conservatives back then was that as President, Clinton should have been a moral role model. Why is that not extended to Cheney?

edited to add last two sentences

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2006 14:22      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grey_girl:

If we gave "grace" to public figures who made stupid mistakes, the Republicans wouldn't have roasted Clinton over Monica Lewinsky. Is grace only given when it's convenient? IIRC, one of the charges by Conservatives back then was that as President, Clinton should have been a moral role model. Why is that not extended to Cheney?

There is one big difference between the situations:
They both involved a major error in judgement, but Cheney's error would not generally be considered a lapse in morality. That's not to say that the circus around Clinton's scandal wasn't ridiculous.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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