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Author Topic: Rita's looking more dangerous than Katrina
Snaggy

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Icon 14 posted September 24, 2005 16:36      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Applause] Bravo Xan, for the quote and Mag Valour for the Red de-cloak [Applause]

( I was worried he'd never get to 666 posts. [Big Grin] )

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 24, 2005 17:33      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Only if he doesn't re-lurk. You're not re-lurking, are you Red?

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2005 08:04      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....

Rhon,
Let me first apologize for bringing this up again. I tried to leave it alone, but you know how that whole conscience thing goes...

I understand that the practice of animal husbandry associated with agriculture can bring those involved to a very profound understanding and appreciation for the necessary mortality and morbidity of those creatures destined to provide food for humankind. (I have worked in agriculture and have many friends and acquaintances in the beef industry). But I also find that, if we are not careful, even those claiming the title Christian can become callous to the sanctity of life of all creatures.

I hope you won't mind then, when I remind you of William Blake's Poem "Auguries of Innocence" , one of so many of his that gently weave the truths of creation into a fabric that helps us understand them.

I hope this helps.

gg

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2005 12:36      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Only if he doesn't re-lurk. You're not re-lurking, are you Red?

He can only re-lurk if he makes another semester of Podcasts!

/me listened to a semester's-worth at work last night.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2005 13:03      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....

Rhon,
Let me first apologize for bringing this up again. I tried to leave it alone, but you know how that whole conscience thing goes...

I understand that the practice of animal husbandry associated with agriculture can bring those involved to a very profound understanding and appreciation for the necessary mortality and morbidity of those creatures destined to provide food for humankind. (I have worked in agriculture and have many friends and acquaintances in the beef industry). But I also find that, if we are not careful, even those claiming the title Christian can become callous to the sanctity of life of all creatures.

I hope you won't mind then, when I remind you of William Blake's Poem "Auguries of Innocence" , one of so many of his that gently weave the truths of creation into a fabric that helps us understand them.

I hope this helps.

gg

Apology not needed, gg, but I appreciate it nonetheless. [Smile]

I'm glad you understand the "necessary mortality and morbidity" of animals. I love animals (used to be on track to become a large-animal vet before I realized I had no chance of financing an education at UPenn) and hate to see any of them suffer. Because of that, and because of my belief that animals do not have souls, I find it preferrable to put down an animal in lieu of suffering. Put it out of its misery and all that. Now, you can understand when that animal is part of someone's livelihood how hard a decision that can be. And I understand how hard it is to put down a pet because of the emotional ties. But really, isn't it more charitable to end the suffering of an animal than to keep it alive in its misery?

For example, I was totally heartbroken when we had to put down Joseph, Emily's bull calf, but he was so ill that it was best for all involved. Joseph was just miserable (and I was miserable to lose him), but putting him down was better than letting him suffer. He had the best of care while he was with us; if we had sold him while he was sick, he would've died on the way to the stockyards.

As a Christian, that was the best decision we could've made for Joseph. I come from a long line of farmers and a large community of farmers, particularly those of Mennonite and Amish denominations. I've been actively involved in FFA (attended four national conventions, filled many leadership roles in my chapter at the Mennonite high school from which I graduated and in my county) and won a variety of scholarships from agricultural groups for the pursuit of a degree in agricultural education. I can say with confidence that the attitude I have regarding the care of animals (and by "care" I mean compassion and concern for well-being) is one learned from watching better Christians than I. (And by the term "better" I mean walks with God much closer than mine.)

If you'd like some scriptures to back up this view, I'll direct you to the first four chapters of Genesis, particularly the point where God gives the care of animals (and the earth in general) over to Adam with the command to care for it. I'll also point you to the laws of the Jews where care for one's livestock was a command, not an option. Jesus also referenced those laws in the New Testament where He used a man's breaking of the no-work-on-Sabbath law to get his ox out of a ditch as an example of things we can/should do when necessary, no matter the consequences. (Eh, look it up. The Bible explains it much better than I can.)

I've probably stirred up a whole bunch of unrest among all of y'all again, so please accept my apologies. However, I'm not writing this to be confrontational, but rather to be educational about my views and how they are valid and, dare I say, acceptable as a Christian.

--------------------
Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2005 13:46      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If I may pitch in with my $0.02??
This issue is obviously one of some sensitivity, and I am not sure if my contribution will move things forward, but would I be correct in stating the following points:
1) It is agreed that compassionate and/or religious people have a duty of care towards any animals they have responsibility for...
2) It is accepted that ending the life of an animal whose suffering cannot be relieved is morally correct....

If I am right, then perhaps this discussion resolves into the question "Is ending the life of an animal which may be about to endure suffering, morally equivalent to ending the life of an animal which is actually suffering?"

I suspect that the two are not the same, but I am not sure that I can develop the philosophical case strongly enough to convince.... any thoughts???

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2005 15:04      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, they aren't the same. The problem with maybe's is they're just that: may be's. They're very different from will be's in that will be's actually happen, whereas maybe's may or may not. So you can't make a solid, final decision of any kind on a maybe, nor is it advisable to take any sort of irrevocable decision, such as killing an animal, over a maybe.

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2005 16:14      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes. Rhonwynn, yes. All that you mention is understood. Xanth and Grummy, I agree entirely.

I re-opened the topic due to an abiding concern that taking the life of an animal not be done carelessly or without due consideration.

Rhonwynn, I acknowledge the Biblical mandates regarding man and his relationship to the animals, including the early chapters of Genesis and all the ongoing commands and instructions for their proper care which continue into and throughout the New Testament, as well. There is so much more to it than the simple proposition that we have the 'right' or privelege to "kill and eat", with all the cautions being provided for their ethical treatment. (Including euthanising to limit needless suffering.)

The wording of your original post on the topic was such that it seemed you might have considered the animals to be a bother, so getting them out of the way by putting them down was no big deal. (Italics added for emphasis).

If that was not your intent, then I guess I needn't say more on the subject.

But did you read or re-read Blake's poem? Aren't the images wonderful and thought-provoking?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 25, 2005 19:07      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
While we're quoting poetry, here's one of my favourites
quote:
Wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty
Wi bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murdering pattle.

I'm truly sorry man's dominion
Has broken Nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth born companion
An' fellow mortal!



--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2005 00:30      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi gg dear. I see now what you meant when you asked your original (?) question. In an attempt to be succinct and decisive way back at the beginning, the tone of my post sounded heartless. For that I apologize. Putting down animals just for the heck of it is not my thing. (Same goes for hunting. If you're going to kill an animal, follow the Native American practice of utilizing as much of it as possible with as little waste as possible.) I love animals, so seeing the carnage of the South with all the dead and starving/diseased pets is just horrible. The animals were/are suffering; so putting them out of their misery would be a good thing in that situation, right? (Just don't go down the street bludgeoning every critter you meet! [Mad] )

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2005 09:40      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks for clearing that up, Rhon. I feel much better now, really. [Wink]

Druid, just who is this Robert Burns fellow anyway?
He reads like a drunken Scotsman or some such... [Big Grin]

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2005 13:21      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
Druid, just who is this Robert Burns fellow anyway?
He reads like a drunken Scotsman or some such... [Big Grin]

Is there any other kind?

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2005 14:22      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Reminds me of the episode of Hollywood Squares that played on the Game Show Network the other night. Question posed to Queen Latifah was "What do Scotsmen wear under their kilts?" She replied that she'd like thongs, but answered boxers (boxers?!) instead. IIRC, the contestant disagreed and the host gave the correct answer to the incredulity and hilarity of all on the celebrity panel.

[Big Grin]

What's the song about the blue ribbon?

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2005 14:33      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's nothing worn under my kilt madam, it's all in pefect working order.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2005 14:38      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ahh, found it. Fond memories of Renn Faire at Mt. Hope; I think 'twas the Rakish Rogues what sang this:

The Scotsman's Kilt
By: Mike Cross

A Scotsman clad in kilt left the bar one evening fair
And one could tell by how he walked he'd drunk more than his share
He staggered on until he could no longer keep his feet
Then stumbled off into the grass to sleep beside the street.

Ring ding diddle diddle i de o
Ring di diddle i o
He stumbled off into the grass to sleep beside the street.

Later on two young and lovely girls just happened by,
And one says to the other with a twinkle in her eye
You see yon sleeping Scotsman who is young and handsome built
I wonder if it's true what they don't wear beneath their kilt.

Ring ding diddle diddle i de o
Ring di diddle i o
I wonder if it's true what they don't wear beneath their kilt.

They crept up to the sleeping Scotsman quiet as could be
Then lifted up his kilt about an inch so they could see
And there behold for them to view beneath his Scottish skirt
Was nothing but what God had graced him with upon his birth

Ring ding diddle diddle i de o
Ring di diddle i o
There was nothing there but what God gave upon his birth

They marveled for a moment then one said we'd best be gone
But let's leave a present for our friend before we move along
They took a blue silk ribbon and they tied it in a bow
Around the bonnie spar that the Scot's lifted kilt did show

Ring ding diddle diddle i de o
Ring di diddle i o
Around the bonnie spar that the Scot's lifted kilt did show

The Scotsman woke to nature's call and stumbled toward a tree
Behind a bush he lifts his kilt and gawks at what he sees
Then in a startled voice he says to what's before his eyes
He said, "Lad I don't know where you've been but I see you won first prize"

Ring ding diddle diddle i de o
Ring di diddle i o
He said, "Lad I don't know where you've been but I see you won first prize"

--------------------
Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2005 14:59      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow, Rita did more damage to where I live than Katrina. Quite a bit of the low ground is still under water, and more trees fell despite the wind being weaker. My family and friends are all still fine. Here's hoping that this was the last big one for this season.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2005 16:19      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Glad to hear from you again, 'Gator. I've been wondering how you fared through this latest storm.
We're sorry for your trouble, happy you are okay. [thumbsup]

maia, Orpheus, MTBBabe. You out there?

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2005 16:26      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Glad to hear you've come through relatively unscathed again CrawGator. Like gg I hope the others are OK too.

And here's hoping that is it (for this year at least...

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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Aditu
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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2005 06:30      Profile for Aditu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I just wanted to let you know my friend made it through okay! The animals are all fine. The property damage is fairly minor.

Sorry to have started a debate.

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2005 10:03      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aditu:
I just wanted to let you know my friend made it through okay! The animals are all fine. The property damage is fairly minor.

Sorry to have started a debate.

The debate was worthwhile and important. I'm glad your friend and her/his friends are all fine, and that the facility isn't destroyed. Thanks for posting that update.

[thumbsup]

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2005 10:33      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now, perhaps I missed it...

But has anyone heard from maia or Orpheus?

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2005 11:26      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
Now, perhaps I missed it...

But has anyone heard from maia or Orpheus?

They haven't been on the Forums. Neither has MTB Babe, who was attending a university not far from the Big Easy.

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2005 14:12      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aditu:
I just wanted to let you know my friend made it through okay! The animals are all fine. The property damage is fairly minor.

Sorry to have started a debate.

I'm glad to hear everyone's okay. [Smile]

--------------------
Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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maia
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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2005 11:50      Profile for maia     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Orpheus and I are fine. He is heading back to the home front today. I have a speaking engagement tomorrow which requires me to stay in Austin a bit longer. We have been checking in with our apartment manager since the storm, and power only came back on yesterday. Since the storm took a more northerly path and came ashore much weaker than expected, the island where we live was relatively unharmed. Poor Orpheus must deal on his own with cleaning up the mess we made in our hurry to evacuate last week including a jungle of plants in the kitchen that need to go back outside and a fridge full of smelly rotten food. Thanks for your thoughts and prayers everyone. Turns out that the evacuation process out of the coastal area was the biggest problem. My pregnant friend (due any time) and her husband were stuck in traffic for 20 hours in 100+ degree heat and didn't use the air conditioning for fear of running out of gas. Luckily, they made it out safely and they are now back home with the baby still in her belly. I also had friends who spent 12 hours on the road only to get 30 miles just to turn around and go back home. Hopefully this will be a lesson for the officials down here, and they can try to make things a little smoother next time. They at least need a way to get gas to people.

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Nothing is too petty to be thoroughly discussed.

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