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Author Topic: D-Day
spungo
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Icon 1 posted June 05, 2004 02:14      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Anyone been following the D-Day anniversary stuff? Probably the last time any of this will be remembered officially, given the age of its participants.

Makes ya think.

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Posts: 6530 | From: Noba Scoba | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
GMx

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Icon 1 posted June 05, 2004 05:07      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The news channels are covering it for a full 48 hours. I think it will still be remembered officially, but it won't be the same without the participants. I'm not sure if my Dad had anything to do with D-Day. I just wish I had asked him more about the war when he was still alive. [Frown]
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 05, 2004 05:20      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ah yes, a great day for the war buffs.

I had 4 uncles in that beach party, 3 of them made it home. They say you could walk for miles just stepping from one corpse to the next. Doubleplusungood.

Still, you think D-day was bad, you should hear some of the stories my high-school woodwork teacher used to tell, he was a 15 year old German soldier on the Russian front.
<monty-python-fake-german-accent>
Not much fun in Stalingrad, no.
</monty-python-fake-german-accent>

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted June 05, 2004 19:51      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Everyone who served in WW11 deserves our respect for just doing what had to be done and not making a big deal about it afterward. They served, and many died, with the quiet conviction of knowing what they were fighting for, and simply dealing with it.

Of course, I don't mean to say that other verterens don't deserve respect. It's just that the conflicts they have served in since WW11 have often been, umm, of questionable value.

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Stereo

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Icon 2 posted June 07, 2004 07:57      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Soldiers who fought the past wars out of good sentiments deserve respect. Politicians who make wars happen again and again out of greed or hatred don't.

I watched a few minutes of TV about the subject this weekend. Seeing those veterans still crying out of grief was bad; seeing images of all those young boys - not actors in a well-planned war choregraphy, nor experienced soldiers, but pretty much kids who wanted to play heroes - laying dead on the beaches was worse. Wasn't WWI supposed to be the "war to end all wars"? Why can't we learn?

I'm even more of a pacifist today than before.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2004 10:24      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[QUTOE]Soldiers who fought the past wars out of good sentiments deserve respect. Politicians who make wars happen again and again out of greed or hatred don't. [/QUOTE]

Soldiers deserve respect wether they have fought in a war or not wether he is a hero or not. Wether he joined because he had nothing better to do or because it was a life long dream. Bottom Line: Anyone who has or will serve in an armed force has and will do more for their nation than the majority of the population can say. For those who fought in a war, for those on the beaches of Normandy and the trenches in Germany; I tip my hat and hope that someday I may be able to do the same for my country.*

*I, in no means, do not endorse nor shall I state my opinions on war at this time. This is mearly a statement on the courage of those who have served and those who will. It is a truely noble thing to do. You do not get paid well, they are mocked by the media and Citizens despise them. Against all opposition, they are true to their country.

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Drazgal
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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2004 10:35      Profile for Drazgal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
[QUTOE]Bottom Line: Anyone who has or will serve in an armed force has and will do more for their nation than the majority of the population can say.

Did the axis soldiers help their country and make in beter off by serving or did they get it bombed into the stone age?

I could list many more examples. Soldiers serving to defend their nation do good for their nation, but being in the armed forces is no guarrentee of doing benifitng their country.

There is a fine line between being true to your coutry and being true to your countries leaders. A line that is too often forgotten.

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2004 10:55      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Did the axis soldiers help their country and make in beter off by serving or did they get it bombed into the stone age?
Good point but it doesn't matter if you win or loose, it is a matter of honor. Did they stand up for something that they believed in? Yes! In that, is honor alone.

quote:
There is a fine line between being true to your coutry and being true to your countries leaders. A line that is too often forgotten.
Also a good point but a westernized point. The idea behind a military is that you have a commander and chief that represents the people. Ideally works in a democracy but in a dictatorship or a single party government it still comes down to the people's will as moral will greatly affect the performance of an army. People do not want to be invaded for any reason and as such, defending your country/countries leaders will always benifit your country/countries leaders.

Please feel free to list any more examples that you may have.

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Katie
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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2004 11:26      Profile for Katie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My brother was hell bent on getting the 60th aniversary Time mag. book.So hell bent that he took the display after he had found all the other copies to be sold out

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2004 11:47      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'll go the opposite way of Drazgal.

Does a soldier who engage in order to go kill some nasty (insert appropriate citizenship name here) doing more for one's country than a teacher teaching kids away from ignorance (and more often than not, away from extremists' grasp at the same time)?

Does a soldier who engage to impress his/her friends doing more than the street sweeper who helps keeping the cities clean and salubrious?

Were those soldiers (and their commanding officers) who humiliated the iraki prisonners doing any good to their countries? Are all those people working in industries, earning money to buy food, cars and everything they need, thus helping the "free world" by keeping its economy alive, not doing anything good?

Jace, you engaged yourself to become a better person, and that's just fine with me. And you think you'll help your country doing so; even better. But please don't think a soldier is worth more than a civilian. Both have their part to play, and a good society thrive when all parts are in equilibrium. Give too much power to any of the many parts, and you get a sure recipe for abuse.

I'll even go as far as to say that even in time of peace, the army is essential to a country. They can give a hand when the first response units (police, firefighters, paramedics, etc.) get more than they can take care of. They are a well-trained, well organized group able to get in when the nature's going awry. And so on.

But not everyone can be a soldier. And of those who can, not all wants to be one. That doesn't mean other choices are any less worthwile.

There are bad soldiers all the same as there are bad teachers. And there are good politicians, the same way some dictator thought they were helping their country by removing a rulers they saw as bad. (Unfortunately, as the saying goes, "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.") I simply think there is no good reason to start a war, period. (The key word here being 'start'.)

You, or anyone else, may disagree, but no one will make me change my opinion on this point.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2004 12:54      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Stereo, you have hit the nail on the head. I do not believe that a Soldier is any more than a civilian as they are not only titles but a soldier is a civilian and a civilian can opt to be a soldier. Regardless of your title, you are still a person.

My point was that a soldier, regardless of experiences, requires the respect of anyone. Not just those who have seen the hells of war and seeing as many of those who have seen the hells of war are not soldiers but merely citizens/civilians of a different nation, they too deserve the same respect.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2004 14:23      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, I'm a bit confused. Care to explain what you mean by:

quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
Anyone who has or will serve in an armed force has and will do more for their nation than the majority of the population can say.

Oh, and by definition, a soldier is not a civilian. A soldier accepts to be put in harm's way to protect the civilians, in exchange, one gets cared of by one's country. At least, that's the deal; it doesn't always turns that way.

In a war, the difference between the civilian and the soldier is that the latter may get killed, but s/he's paid for taking that risk, and s/he knew that from the day s/he enlisted; the civilian may get killed without even knowing why.

So, sorry if I hurt your feelings here, but I'll have more respect for a civilian going through war than a soldier, because the soldier is, after all, doing the job s/he is being paid for. A hard and dangerous job, yes - just not a glorious one as so many pretend it to be. The heroism is in the person doing the job and how the job is being done, not in the job itself.

This being said, I'll also have a special respect for the kids who are forced to enlist (conscription), or get to do it believing in a bunch of lies set up by those who won't ever see fire themselve, and still manage to do the job once they realize that they may never live to see another day.

But anyone who give up one's ability to think for oneself gets no respect from me, no matter the name of the job or the reason given - be it nationalism, religion, bureaucracy, etc.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2004 15:26      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
My point was that a soldier, regardless of experiences, requires the respect of anyone.

Got to disagree there Jace.

The Japanese soldiers who killed every child in the New Guinean village in retaliation for some of the adults aiding the allies deserve no respect from anyone.

Neither do the German soldiers who forced whole villages to dig their own graves before shooting them.

Or the American soldiers at My Lai or Abu Graib.

Or the British soldiers in India, who punished Muslim 'mutineers' by wrapping them in pig skins and burying them alive.

War can bring out the best and the worst in people, but it's usually the worst.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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