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Author Topic: Geek men and feminists
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 09, 2007 15:37      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
That said, any geek guy looking for traditionally "hot" women deserves to be left impoverished and in the dust as a woman like that will leave him.

Mrs Druid's 'hot'.

23 years, and counting...

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted March 09, 2007 18:51      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A couple of thoughts. There always has been a particular American character type that is "aggressive loud and boorish", and indeed they are not unknown in other cultures and nationalities, but Americans are perhaps more prone to this. You can't therefore blame feminism for the females of this type, though nowadays they will almost certainly label themselves as such.

Xan also makes a fair point. The feminist social revolution has left many men wondering how they are supposed to behave, and what is their role. It is confusing that many (possibly even most)women while being rightly sensitive to any suggestion that they might be less capable than a man, also like chivalrous behaviour from a man, doors opened for them etc., which doesn't add up to me.

Lastly I'm with TFD. Mrs Calli still does it for me, and we still seem to be rubbing along on a relationship based on 24 years of mutual incomprehension.

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Astronomer Jedi
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Icon 1 posted March 09, 2007 22:31      Profile for Astronomer Jedi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by boo:
Thanks everyone. As always, a lot of interesting and thoughtful responses. I think I'll wait a bit to see if anyone else cares to respond before I put in my .02 cents. [Smile]

Still waiting... [Razz]

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skylar
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 01:28      Profile for skylar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
I find the complaint that there are "no good men" out there the biggest crock of dookie that women sell themselves (and good men), and the bad men are just ready to spoon-feed that crap riiiiiight back at these women.

*nodding*

I was reading an 'article' in Glamour magazine the other day, which for once showed a little bit of insight by suggesting that women themselves are to blame for the lack of "good men", because men find themselves urged men to be sensitive, caring, and generally to take on supposedly feminine attributes... and now women no longer find that attractive.

On a related note, it bothers me that there are still so many generalizations thrown around regarding feminism and feminist thought. I've always been a little ambivalent towards the term myself, but I don't think that feminism is no longer necessary, or that it's entirely down to men to re-imagine their own gender roles.

On a related note, has anyone in this thread come across Gaze Theory? To summarize it, Gaze Theory is based around the premise that women on screen (in films, advertising, whatever) become objects of lustful gaze (fetishised scopophilia) and that a woman's place in a screen narrative is often not to push it forward, but to freeze it around the pleasure of looking at her, because the camera is (in most cases) controlled by male eyes.

I've been working a lot on Gaze Theory over the course of my MA, and I find it insightful, but also highly problematic, so I'd be interested to see if anyone has any initial reactions to the idea of it.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 09:44      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
On a related note, has anyone in this thread come across Gaze Theory? To summarize it, Gaze Theory is based around the premise that women on screen (in films, advertising, whatever) become objects of lustful gaze (fetishised scopophilia) and that a woman's place in a screen narrative is often not to push it forward, but to freeze it around the pleasure of looking at her, because the camera is (in most cases) controlled by male eyes.
Simply ... bull. Actors in general, in most cases, are chosen because the oposite sex finds thems appealing in some way. And before you begin pointing at people like Natile Portman, remember that the eternal question of last decade was "Who's hotter Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt?", and that one of the driving forces behind Titanic not being a sinking ship was the lustful teen girls who longed for Leo.

The problem with feminism as an ideaology and the movement is the extreamist cases (which is the problem with most 'ism's), women who bash the women who choose to stay home and have kid and then to stay with the kids (which is a woman's choice to do, if she wants and the family agrees). There have been a few lawsuits from early feminists because they were told "don't worry, have your carreer while your young; and you can have kids later" and now they find out that the chance of pregnency begins dropping rapidly after thirty and those that put off having kids feel deprived and mislead by the movement. That said, a lot of other good has come from the movement, as women are now on almost equal footing (there are some studies that show the remaining difference in average salary is caused by time off work for childbirth) and there are few if any fields that women haven't broken into.

I don't know why this is, but the engineering fields still seem to be lacking in women going into the field. The University I went to, and now work at, has been trying a lot of things to bring more women into these fields, but the progress is slow going. They offer a number of scholarships and SWE (Society of Women Engineer) is very active. There has been a large percentage increase, but that happens when you go from "almost none" to "just a few". I don't get over to the engineering building very often where I work, so maybe there is a more noticable change toward equal numbers; but, I seem to doubt it because of how long the college was pushing for it how slowly it seems to be working.

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skylar
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 10:15      Profile for skylar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
quote:
On a related note, has anyone in this thread come across Gaze Theory? To summarize it, Gaze Theory is based around the premise that women on screen (in films, advertising, whatever) become objects of lustful gaze (fetishised scopophilia) and that a woman's place in a screen narrative is often not to push it forward, but to freeze it around the pleasure of looking at her, because the camera is (in most cases) controlled by male eyes.
Simply ... bull. Actors in general, in most cases, are chosen because the oposite sex finds thems appealing in some way. And before you begin pointing at people like Natile Portman, remember that the eternal question of last decade was "Who's hotter Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt?", and that one of the driving forces behind Titanic not being a sinking ship was the lustful teen girls who longed for Leo.

Ah, but who got naked in 'Titanic'... the guy or the girl? [Wink]

I agree with you to a large extent; gazing isn't limited to men looking at women... but don't you think that in a majority of cases the women are still the objectified? And I'm not saying they themselves don't encourage that, and buy into it, btw.

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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 10:42      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There are many instances of gratuitous male nudity in cinema. The shower scene from 'I Robot' was particularly funny: The camera lovingly running up and down his body, pausing longingly at his butt, and eventually making its way to his face... Who showers like that? You've got to move around a little or the shower does you no good. There was no scrubbing. I would assume that he had to keep from getting his arm wet, but that's silly- they should have had the technology to build a waterproof prosthetic. That means that the only reasons we didn't see him scrubbing 'pit were esthetic. Who thinks they did that for the guys in the audience?

Movies that depart from the independent or drama genres are obligately objectifying- there's no room within their script for meaningful character development because everyone thinks they have to budget millions of dollars for special effects to garner an audience. Image becomes important because the audience isn't given time to fall in love with personality. Nudity becomes a metaphore for intimacy as well as serving to capture wandering attention.

The other night I watched a three-hour long Yugoslavian film called 'Underground.' I'd heartily recommend it to anyone and yet most American audiences wouldn't enjoy the film. It takes the time to allow you to love the characters even though they're funny-looking. It communicates using complex metaphore rather than stereotypes. It's one of the few movies I've ever seen in which all the heroes die but there's a happy ending (!!!). Only when the American audience becomes sophisticated enough to enjoy a long, involved film that doesn't degrade itself by attempting to spoonfeed the audience will we move away from the objectification of actors and actresses.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 11:22      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I saw that. It was kinda weird, kinda bittersweet, and entertaining.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 13:04      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
sky: I'm happy to point out that I've never seen Titanic, so I couldn't tell you. [Big Grin]

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 14:23      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Xanthine wrote:
quote:
I saw that. It was kinda weird, kinda bittersweet, and entertaining
You saw Underground? You enjoyed it? Really? [hearts]

Have you seen 'The Saddest Music in the World'?

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 15:31      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No. Heard of it though.

I saw Underground because my boyfriend is Serb and a huge Kostunica fan. His grandfather was a Partisan and he himself was starting college right when Yugoslavia fell apart, so Underground is sort of his past and present. Fortunately, he had finished his obligatory year of military service, and, since he was anti-aircraft, he didn't have to go back in, and he dodged service during the NATO bombings by signing onto a rescue crew. I'm not sure pulling people parts out of bombed out buildings was any safer than manning a big-ass gun, but I think it was the whole "I don't want to shoot at anyone" coupled with a deep and utter hatred for his country's government at the time that got him (he wasn't loving NATO or the EU at the time either). Not all his friends were so lucky.

There's this other Yugoslav movie I've seen parts of that was made pre-civil war. In English, it's called Border Post. The version I saw in pieces was not subtitled, and since my Serbian is limited to a polite greeting and a few obscenities I didn't really watch it. My boyfriend thought it was hysterical.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 18:23      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Xanthine, you can be my new auxiliary best friend if you want. [hearts] You know, in case my current ones get broken or wear out. I'm doing pretty well- three official current best friends and only one other is dead. (Wore out.)

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 20:12      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
On of the first things I learned in aikido is it's not nice to break your friends. [Razz]

Sure, but please bear in mind that I am hardly an expert on Balkans cinema. Though I think I know what your personal ad would say: Must love dirt and movies made in countries that no longer exist.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2007 20:28      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Underground was the first (and only) film from the region that I've seen. It just seemed to belong to a class of films that most people wouldn't be patient enough or flexible enough to enjoy. Therefore, anyone who also likes that film gains neatness credit. As someone who enjoyed the film as well, and someone who has already garnered substantial neatness credit, you were nominated for auxiliary best friend status. Sorry I couldn't offer you the full title, but I catch enough flack for having three already.

But the main thing, getting back to the topic of the thread is... um... You're a woman and a feminist and... um... I like you anyway. (Doh!) I mean... um... You're not so bad for a feminist [Eek!] ... um... nevermind.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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Xanthine

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Icon 12 posted March 10, 2007 21:13      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, you gonna stop now or keep going until those feet you've stuck in your mouth start poking out your ass? I don't mind either way - it's an amusing thing to watch. [Razz]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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hecateluna
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Icon 1 posted March 12, 2007 19:05      Profile for hecateluna     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
First, hi, I'm new, please don't hate me for continuing the thread meandering away from the original topic.
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
I don't know why this is, but the engineering fields still seem to be lacking in women going into the field.

As a current PhD student in Computer Science, I feel particularly qualified to answer this. Here's the deal. Before I went into Computer Science (I had a few aimless college years), I didn't consider myself a feminist. I mean, obviously I thought women should be treated as equals to men, but I didn't get it. I hadn't experienced any obvious discrimination, and I thought maybe these people were being over-dramatic and should worry about more important social problems. Then I went into computer science. In my intro classes, I had two different TAs actually ask me what I was doing there ("Why are you in computer science [computer science and engineering]?? Girls usually take 'computer and information sciences', because it's easier."). Um, yeah, you're saying this to the person who's gotten the highest scores on every exam and lab so far? In later classes, when I helped friends with difficult material, I got "compliments" like "wow, you're so smart, I didn't know girls could be that smart." In group project classes, my all-male groups very nicely and very condescendingly offered that I didn't have to do any of the coding, I could just write the final paper. Beyond these blatantly sexist acts, nearly everyone I encountered in the program seemed to look at me with confusion, disdain, or pity. I'm sure it wasn't conscious for most of them. They don't intend to act in this way, but they do.

Graduate school so far hasn't been nearly as bad--but I have had "nice" male professors doing me "favors" when grading, and on a group project, when something was wrong, one of my partners offered to "help me" figure out what's wrong with my code, instead of, you know, offering to debug his own code.

Getting a degree in computer science for a woman either means giving up, and using the "favors" to her advantage, or fighting a good portion of the time to prove that she's actually very competent and deserves the same respect as anyone else in the program. Me? I like fighting. I like proving I can do stuff people don't think I can do. I like seeing the look on someone's face when they realize they've severely underestimated my abilities. But most people (I mean people, not only women) don't deal particularly well with this. It's easier to just give up, move on to something else that interests you.

There are a hundred more things I could say here, but I've already talked way too long, so I'll shut up.

Short comment on the women in movies topic: Yeah, men are also sometimes objectified in movies and on television, no question. However, think about how many unattractive men make it, as compared to unattractive women. I'm not much of a film/tv buff, but I can think of a lot of men who are fat, bald, slobbish, and generally unattractive who have gotten really cool roles (for example James Gandolfini, many leading males in sitcoms, I've seen Nicholas Cage called sexy, but seriously, that man is NOT conventionally handsome--he looks like a horse, people!), and I can only think of one woman who even remotely fits that description (Camryn Manheim), and she is constantly mocked, called a "fat pig," etc., and doesn't get many awesome roles. Even women who play "ugly" girls are beautiful (America Ferrera, anyone? Putting braces, glasses, and frumpy hair on someone doesn't actually make them ugly).

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted March 12, 2007 19:55      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
hecateluna, you picked a dark couple of goddesses for your forum name. Makes me happy. Pleased to welcome you to the forum, even if you're yet another computer geek and you people scare biogeeks like me.

Response to women in cinema issue: Woody Allen. But, actually, I agree.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted March 12, 2007 20:35      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
hecateluna... I'm pleased to see a CS girl in here. [Smile]

Mind you, I hate to say it, but I've seen /very few/ CS-interested girls. I know a *lot* of Math girls who could utterly run π bound paths around me, and their ilk is the kind I've most frequently encountered in CS. Very few people, and this includes guys, seem to have the 'knack' or 'fascination' with CS/tech required to really cut it in programming. Noting my own comment about men in the above, I'll simply point out that with a generally smaller number of female CS students, the group of 'good/really interested' ones drops.

I'm not stating any of this to be proud, smug, or a misogynist ___. I'm simply stating my observations, and I'm not at all happy to see them. I'd love to be able to work with a variety of interesting people, and not that it should mean anything, but it'd be nice to have a change of pace and collaborate with women as well. [Smile]

These days, it'd be damn nice to be able to work with a 'peer' of sorts...and I'm hard pressed to find that among men as well. [Razz] That's not to say that I'm the be-all-end-all, or anything wonderful...simply that I know very people with Perl & *nix chops in my general vicinity who are willing to take so-so pay. [Razz] I know someone who I'd love to work with...but she had to go and become an ex-pat, didn't she? [Wink]

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 12, 2007 21:02      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
hecateluna wrote:
First, hi, I'm new, please don't hate me for continuing the thread meandering away from the original topic.

Welcome to the GC forums. You're actually upholding a long-standing tradition without realizing it, so nobody is going to hate you for that.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted March 12, 2007 21:09      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some of that problem, dman, may be because the girls decide to seek out friendlier territory. In a lot of the male-dominated fields, a woman has to be outstanding before the men will even recognize her as mediocre. This can be true in my own area as well. Fortunately, I have not felt the sort of sexism hecateluna has encountered for a couple reasons: girls are at about parity in biochem and, in my particular corner of biochemistry, there is a long and glorious tradition of outstanding women scientists, Rosalind Franklin being one of them (though she did fibers and I do crystals). I'm also good enough to be seen as mediocre (though that's as much about my luck as it is about my skillz). [Wink] As I've said earlier, most of the times when my gender has slapped me in the face is in my hobbies, and part of that is because I'm not good enough to be seen as mediocre.

The thing about what hecateluna is describing is the perpetrators don't realize they're doing it, and most would claim that they do see women as equals. Talk's pretty damn cheap. Others just don't see how wrong or unfair they're being. And that's where the assertiveness and bitch-slapping have to come in.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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WinterSolstice

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Icon 1 posted March 13, 2007 07:35      Profile for WinterSolstice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My mother had a long career in EE in the 60s - 80s. Let me tell you - you guys have no idea. She dealt with "old-school" engineers... walls covered in porno, cigar smoke and diry jokes constantly, being groped, demeaned, and treated like crap.
SGI, Lockheed Martin, GTE, various other black projects and such that she can only hint about (we moved all over for her to work on stuff). It was hell.

So I'm glad that's all that you're dealing with - but I agree that it is still not a level playing field. I'm sorta veteran in IT now, and I have to admit that I only know of 4 women who really "have it". Of course, I know very few men who do too, and if you think you got treated badly - you should see how we treat men like that [Big Grin]

People like DMan and a few of the others on here are revered, while the others are reviled. Unfortunately, the dumber they are, the more nasty they are to people they consider inferior - women especially.

I for one welcome a new CS person to the forum, especially since it appears you can run circles around me!

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hecateluna
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Icon 1 posted March 13, 2007 09:07      Profile for hecateluna     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
hecateluna... I'm pleased to see a CS girl in here. [Smile]

Mind you, I hate to say it, but I've seen /very few/ CS-interested girls.

I'm not really sure why, but I've had a hugely different experience. My first CS class was about 45% female (and the class didn't count for any other kind of credit, so clearly they were there for the CS). That percentage very quickly dropped as I went along in the program, but my perception wasn't that it was because the girls didn't like the material or did badly in the classes.

Anyways, it's true that very few people can be good programmers or computer scientists, and that shows in the huge rates of major changes after the first few courses--but the only reason I see for the higher rate for women is the social climate.

quote:
Originally posted by WinterSolstice:
Of course, I know very few men who do too, and if you think you got treated badly - you should see how we treat men like that [Big Grin]

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Do you mind explaining? It sounds to me like you're saying "Don't be so upset about being a good student/scientist who's treated badly based on gender, because we treat the bad scientists/students of the other gender worse," but I don't actually think that's what you're saying--but my brain isn't making any other sense out of it.

Xan: Don't get me started about my treatment with respect to hobbies. Gaming (as in the old-fashioned tabletop kind) geeks can be some of the most sexist people out there. At least it's not like what's going on with my sister--her boyfriend's friends have a "no girls allowed" rule in their games. I mean, come on, are you serious? Are you FIVE or something???


Back on the topic: I've found that it's very rare that geek guys (aside from the one I married) are remotely interested in me, personally. I dunno if it's because I'm a feminist, or I'm not as pretty as they'd like and/or don't spend hours making myself look pretty to go to work in an office where I'm lucky if everyone actually showered today, or because I somehow seemed unavailable, or because I was smart enough to be "one of the guys," but that was my experience, which was always (and still is) pretty shocking to me. (I mean, aren't you geek guys supposed to, you know, WANT a girl that's going to know what you're talking about when you're ranting about your shiny new toys, and is willing to play video games, and might even actually introduce you to some boardgames or RPGs you've never heard of?? Regardless of other factors like feminism or lack of cutesy girly habits?)

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted March 13, 2007 09:17      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hecateluna:

Anyways, it's true that very few people can be good programmers or computer scientists, and that shows in the huge rates of major changes after the first few courses--but the only reason I see for the higher rate for women is the social climate.

It's also blatantly obvious in the quality of code out there.
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WinterSolstice

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Icon 1 posted March 13, 2007 09:48      Profile for WinterSolstice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hecateluna:
Do you mind explaining? It sounds to me like you're saying "Don't be so upset about being a good student/scientist who's treated badly based on gender, because we treat the bad scientists/students of the other gender worse," but I don't actually think that's what you're saying--but my brain isn't making any other sense out of it.[/QB]

I can see how that didn't come out too clearly. I don't think I said that the way I intended to-
What I'm saying is that in my experience IT people are really nasty to people in general. The worse they are at their profession the nastier they behave to other people in an attempt to make themselves feel better.

The cruelest people I know are also the least skilled - and incidentally are so negative towards women in IT that I'm constantly telling them that they need to pull their head out. I don't want to go into my personal experiences with it, but if these guys are willing to "joke" about it, they have some pretty big issues.

I personally am probably more to the "nice, but unintentionally condescending" side. I try to help out people in general, but if they blow past me I'm delighted to see it. Hell, if they're good enough, I'll start asking them questions instead. My current supervisor is like that. I had to train him initially, but he has such a great mind that he quickly surpassed me in all the areas he was interested in. So he consults me about the other areas, I consult him about his areas, and we work together great. That wouldn't matter to me if he was male/female (though I'm really trepidatious about dealing with women in office settings... too much risk of doing something stupid on my part.)

--------------------
An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.

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hecateluna
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Icon 1 posted March 13, 2007 10:04      Profile for hecateluna     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by hecateluna:

Anyways, it's true that very few people can be good programmers or computer scientists, and that shows in the huge rates of major changes after the first few courses--but the only reason I see for the higher rate for women is the social climate.

It's also blatantly obvious in the quality of code out there.
? So you have a large enough sample size (female coders, that is) to really know whether there's some difference in the quality of code produced? Where is this magical land with all these female programmers?

My experience with women has been about equal to that with men (possibly better--but most of my experiences have been with proficient programmers, so it may have just been a style preference). But I've only worked with two or three women, so I can't really say for sure. Also, the fact that the women in my classes consistently had above average grades (including on programming assignments, and including on some blindly-graded programming assignments) seems to me to indicate that this wasn't the reason they were dropping out of the program. Granted this is just anecdotal evidence, based on the classes I happened to take and the ten or so women I happened to know in those classes, which is by no means "proof" that women are "just as good," but it seems to me like the burden of proof in this situation is on the person claiming they aren't as good, and my anecdotal evidence does support my claim.

Beyond that, I do think there are probably some women "computer scientists" out there who got by largely on the "favors" I mentioned in my previous post. But laziness is equal opportunity. There are plenty of lazy, bad male programmers out there, and I'm sure there would be more if they were given more opportunities (that is, were condescendingly given "favors" in classes and on projects).

Posts: 17 | From: Ohio | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged


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