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Author Topic: Heavy Boots
fs

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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2009 10:05      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ah yes, it was because of the heavy boots.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2009 13:43      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
43% of university physics students got the first question wrong???????

*gobsmacked*

/me wanders off muttering, "Th' yoong peepl t'day..."

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2009 15:40      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
fs - you have highlighted the single biggest problem with modern education:

Almost everybody is being taught how to retain and reproduce information - almost nobody is being taught how to think.
[Mad]

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MacManKrisK

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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2009 16:09      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Grummash: People are much easier to lead when they are taught to "memorize and regurgitate." When people are taught how to actually think, they become much harder to (blindly) lead.

Also, it's a lot easier to teach using the "memorize and regurgitate" method. Good teachers (of which there are sadly few) are able to teach to the "average and above" side of the class while still stimulating and not teaching over the heads of the "below average" end of the class. This is a challenging and complicated thing to do, even for the best teachers, so most just teach towards the lower end of the spectrum. The "above average" kids wind up bored and under-stimulated, and the collective intelligence of the class slides lower and lower as the "below average" kids are taught down to and the "above average" get bored and give up.

Maybe I'm just explaining my own personal frustrations that I had in school.... [ohwell]

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2009 17:36      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________ OK heres one for you Physics types.

You are on the ISS before you is a container like a fish tank. You put two high mass objects into said container and close lid.

A: Will they after suitable time be in contact with one another?

B: Will they be in contact with the wall of the container closest to the largest external object?

I have my own thoughts I just want to know yours.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2009 19:58      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
A: Will they after suitable time be in contact with one another?

B: Will they be in contact with the wall of the container closest to the largest external object?

I worry more info is needed: is there any residual relative speed between the two masses, and between the masses and the container? Do you want a perfect "free-falling" system or is it a real, thermodynamic one? Is there air or any fluid in the container?

Under the assumption of airless (that is, no friction), perfect free-falling closed system with no initial speed, the two masses would move toward each other with an acceleration related to the other's mass and their initial distance, given that the mass of things around (shell of the container, the ISS itself, etc.) is too low/too far in comparison of the observed masses. Well, if I remember my physics correctly, anyway.

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Eppur, si muove!

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 10, 2009 02:53      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________ Stereo __ Did you miss the first Para.


You are on the ISS before you is a container like a fish tank. You put two high mass objects into said container and close lid.

ISS International Space Station. The whole system is in equilibrium, due to orbital dynamics.

I chose a transparent box, to exclude air currents and drafts. I did not exclude crew members sailing by doing their jobs or observing.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted May 10, 2009 05:35      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
ISS International Space Station. The whole system is in equilibrium, due to orbital dynamics.

This is why I asked about perfect or not system. Because, here is a little point often forgotten: there is still some atmosphere at the altitude of the ISS. Although very thin, it is still enough to slow it down and force trajectory corrections every now and them. So unless the masses are very heavy (small black holes weighing many tons), you will find them on the side of the container before you could see any movement toward each other. This because either: 1) then were placed in there when the ISS was not on perfect trajectory, so upon correction the station will change trajectory while the masses will continue they initial one; or 2) they were placed there just after correction, so under "perfect" trajectory, then the ISS will change its path due to friction, but the masses won't be affected.

Now, you would have said Voyager... And then, only if it doesn't meet a comet, or get stuck in some interstellar wind, or... Yeah, cosmic movement isn't quite as fixed as we would like to think.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 10, 2009 07:47      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________________ Stereo __ I was hoping for more input from other members of this forum on this question. However your answers do agree with most known facts. Depending on how long between altitude adjustments I would think that the two masses would move towards each other and towards the most massive part of the ISS. Unless being in the center would negate those attractions.

Now on the topic of orbit decay the objects may be under the influence of the Earth and settle towards our planet. Especially after the thrusters fire to push the ISS back out. New question during altitude adjustment is there a form of gravity from the forces of acceleration? Last question would a passing crew member disturb the experiment?

I got more but it seems that you and I are the only ones interested.

Yes, Voyager I or II would have been a lot better for this experiment.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 13, 2009 10:48      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
______________________ I just gotts to ask this.

If there is no gravity on the moon why would heavy boots make any difference?

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted May 13, 2009 11:24      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
______________________ I just gotts to ask this.

If there is no gravity on the moon why would heavy boots make any difference?

They wouldn't, which is why the answer is incredibly stupid instead of just regular stupid.

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Richard Wolf VI
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Icon 1 posted May 13, 2009 11:30      Profile for Richard Wolf VI   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
______________________ I just gotts to ask this.

If there is no gravity on the moon why would heavy boots make any difference?

OK, first correction: There IS gravity on the Moon, it's just that is 1/6 of that of the Earth. Second thing is that since there's little atmosphere, friction is minimal and objects fall with pactically the same acceleration, so it's unlikely that using heavier boots will change anything.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted May 13, 2009 11:46      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Of course it would.

The boots. Are. Heavy.

Don't you get it?

Heavy means they weigh a lot.

[Wink]

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted May 13, 2009 11:54      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Wolf VI:
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
______________________ I just gotts to ask this.

If there is no gravity on the moon why would heavy boots make any difference?

OK, first correction: There IS gravity on the Moon, it's just that is 1/6 of that of the Earth. Second thing is that since there's little atmosphere, friction is minimal and objects fall with pactically the same acceleration, so it's unlikely that using heavier boots will change anything.
Heavy boots mean you leave deeper footprints. That's why they wore them. They wanted the Russians and Martians to see their footprints and be impressed. Deep footprints imply virility, and an abundance of vital fluids. (But of course, in Soviet Union, your foot prints YOU... )

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 13, 2009 14:00      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Stereo, MoMan: there's another factor to consider in the problem, the initial placement of the two objects.

If the initial placement has one of the objects further from the Earth than the other, then they're in slightly different orbits.

Orbital mechanics is weird.

Let's call the objects C and F (for Close and Far - from Earth) each in an orbit of radius Rc and Rf from earth, with Rc less than Rf.

As the period of an orbit is a function of radius, with the lower orbit having a shorter period, they would be seen to drift slowly apart, (C drifting towards the front of the spaceship, F towards the rear) unless their mutual gravitational attraction is enough to overcome this effect.

Assuming it is, C will be moving to a higher orbit, i.e. away from the Earth, which would tend to slow it down, while R will be drawn to a lower orbit, falling towards earth, which will speed it up.

How all of that works out is far from intuitive, you'd have to do the maths, and I've long-since forgotten how to do that.

All of the above ignored the gravity of the ISS itself. If you try to factor that in, things get even more complicated

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 13, 2009 17:36      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________ The Famous Druid __ That part of calculating centripetal acceleration always was a bummer to me. My physics prof put in a question on the final just to keep me from ace-ing his course. The only time that knowing that stuff helped was while trying to cure a noise problem with a roller vane fuel pump.

As the roller came in the cam from the long radii to the shorter I proved that it was no longer being pushed by the slot but was being held back by the slot. The cure was to reduce the output orifice to generate more back pressure keeping the roller on the back side of the slot. I was dealing with some dim bulbs there until I pointed out that Ice skaters use the same principle to go faster in a spin, they call the method muscle up, as they pull in their arms and the one leg.

As to lunar gravity I believe that there is a seven to one mass difference between the Earth and the Moon.

It still must be the heavy boots.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Ugh, MightyClub
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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2009 04:46      Profile for Ugh, MightyClub     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I couldn't resist taking an informal survey of the club household on this matter. Lizzy Club, the elder daughter, quickly and confidently selected the correct answers.

Mrs. Club, however, decided the pen would float up. She proposed that the Appollo astronauts stayed on the moon because they wore "special suits" before I had a chance to list the choices, and told me to go away when I did get them out.

The youngest club looked at me like I was crazy, randomly selected "the pen will float up", and said astronauts don't float off the moon because the jump and "step down really hard." I don't hold it against her, though. She's only in fifth grade, and they don't teach anything about extra-terrestrial physics up to that point as far as I know.

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Ugh!

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2009 07:38      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Stereo, MoMan: there's another factor to consider in the problem, the initial placement of the two objects.

If the initial placement has one of the objects further from the Earth than the other, then they're in slightly different orbits.

Yes, if their distance to the earth differs, they are on different orbits. But, if the ISS orbits in such a way that it always presents the same face to the Earth, the most "exterior" point of the ISS has a different orbit from the most "interior" point. Yet the ISS stays one, because the farthest point moves faster (in absolute speed) than the nearest one. So if the astronaut (or cosmonaut, if s/he's Russian!) place the masses while being strapped onto the ISS, this differential speed will be communicated to the masses.

Of course, if the ISS does revolves over itself, that's quite different, or if the astronaut isn't immobile relatively to the station, or there is some ventilation that pushes the air around before s/he closes the tank, or... Heh, with a thank big enough, and the objects' masses just right to void other outside influences, and the ISS revolving onto itself synchronously with its orbit around the Earth, you could get the masses to apparently orbit each other inside the tank!

Anyway, we're back to my initial comment: not enough information to give a full, exact answer; and no matter what, the ISS cannot be a perfect environment for such an experiment. Do it many times, the parameters will never be exactly the same, so you'll get different results.

Ugh: I think your eldest daughter has earned her geek card!

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Eppur, si muove!

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2009 09:13      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________________ Hi All Again __ Back in the days of 68k Macs there was an APP that you could build (solar) systems and watch the inter actions of the masses, I believe it even had a demo of our Solar system and you could see the eliptal nature of the orbits as the back ground had concentric circles.

Even the "No gravity" moon perturbs our Earths orbit, just as it creates tides.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2009 11:05      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
MoMan, mass is conserved no matter where you go. Your mass will not change on the moon. Your weight will, because there is less gravity, but really, a grown man in a space suit isn't going to go flying off the surface of the moon even if he's not wearing heavy boots.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2009 13:14      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you're going to ask a list of questions, you should include one or two that are at least a little bit tricky, like "If you let go of a helium filled balloon on the moon, what will it do?"
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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2009 15:47      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
"If you let go of a helium filled balloon on the moon, what will it do?"

What kind of boots is it wearing?

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2009 15:56      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen, my guess is it would sit on the ground. Things are simple without an atmosphere.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2009 15:59      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
_________________ OK heres one for you Physics types.

You are on the ISS before you is a container like a fish tank. You put two high mass objects into said container and close lid.

A: Will they after suitable time be in contact with one another?

B: Will they be in contact with the wall of the container closest to the largest external object?

I have my own thoughts I just want to know yours.

Assuming that your objects haven't been acted on by any outside force, they'll accelerate at the same rate as everything else on the ISS and therefore it'll look like they're floating in the tank. If you gave 'em a push, well, it depends on how hard they got pushed.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 14, 2009 17:40      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
__________________ Xanthine __ You mean to say that on the moon I would still weigh 15 stone or near 100 kilos.

Depends on the density of the moons atmosphere, there is some just not as much as here.

Now as to the two masses in the fish tank without water, On the ISS, and the space shuttle there are too many external forces acting upon the experiment, so to find out we have to replicate Voyager and wait until it is totally out side of Earths orbit.

I know many of you have been in accidents and have sustained high "Gs" for a short time, but has any one else gone ballistic or rode a centrifuge?

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Benjamin Franklin,

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