homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam

The Geek Culture Forums


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Geek Culture Forums   » Other Geeky Stuff   » Ask a Geek!   » This appeared on my radar.

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: This appeared on my radar.
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 10:54      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____________________________ Ok, every one knows that gasoline is just purified dinosaur poop.

http://technocrat.net/d/2007/8/14/25017

So what catalists do I need to convert Methane to gasoline? I have Seventeen acres of grasses that I could put into a silo and keep wet, trap the gasses and then play with them. I know that many of you know more organic chem. than I do. How would I take a single carbon molecue and make it into an eight carbon one?

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

SuperFan!
Member # 4924

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 11:45      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think that this is not a do it yourself at home project. Many oil companies still burn off the methane or release it into the atmosphare rather than do something with it. I would say it would be easier to convert an engine to run off of CH4 than to turn methane into a liquid to burn. This is why compaines burn it off rather than use it.


Though, If you wanted to convert it to a liquid, you would have need really high temeratures and pressures to break up CH4 in a non oxidation reastion. A quick google search shows this give hydrogen and CO. This can then be turned into ethanol.

I used to work in a waste water treatment plant where we used the produced methane to run MASSIVE air blowing engines. low RPM very high torque. Methane just has to low of a boiling point and no good way to easily trap and compress it. That is why so many places with exess methane, land fills, oil companies, ect, burn it off, not even running it through a small onsite electric generator, rather than deal with it.

In short, you don't have the ability to heat it to high temperature without it exploding, you don't have the ability to safely compress it, I wouldn't try to use this stuff.

Better to grow switchgrass and ferment it into ethanol.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 16:33      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________________________ The problem with an alcohol is the caburators on my equipment. The floats will desolve, only one has a brass float and it is so low compression I doubt that it could make any power from an alcohol. I do know that where I worked when we were heat treating steels the really tough stuff required that the furnace be fired with cracked gas. Heating gas (methane) heated until it was about 2000F/degrees then fed to the furnace beside the cracker and burned, that is how we got heating gas to heat to 2700f degrees.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Dave
Geek
Member # 1977

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 16:44      Profile for Mr. Dave     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I actually did a little research on this a few years ago. (What can I say? I was bored.)

You really don't want to try liquifying methane. IIRC, you need to run it up to around 2000 psi (That isn't a typo - I really mean two thousand) before it will condense. That means that something like 1 cubic metre (around 35 cu. ft.) compresses to around a tablespoon of liquid. It also means you need to burn around a hundred m^3 of gas to liquify one m^3. (Don't quote my figures - it was a long time ago. They are in roughly the right ballpark, though.)

It is theoretically possible to caatalyze methane with oxygen into methanol, and it has been done experimentally. Unfortunately, most of the methane skips right over being methanol and goes straight to being CO2 and water. Again, really not cost-effective. Turning methane into octane would probably be eight times worse, if not exponenetially worse.

Your best bet, if you have a source of methane, is to feed it directly to a small internal combustion engine. One of the neighbours cleans up after a thousand head of beef cattle; he's building a methane digester/generator that's supposed to feed back into the Hydro grid. (It was supposed to go online this summer, but I hear he's run into trouble with the contractor.)

A more realistic project for you to research would be turning used vegetable oil (say, from the local fish hut, chip truck or burger pit) into diesel fuel. Try Googling "biodiesel", "soy diesel" or "Greasy Greta" (the name of some guy's soy-burning VW Rabbit.)

--------------------
I'm not normally like this, but then I'm not normally normal.

Posts: 193 | From: Leverkusen Institute of Paleocybernetics | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 17:06      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
__________________________ Herein lies the second rub, none of my equipment is diesel. The last resort would be to just burn the grasses as fuel in a small furnace to heat the house and barn, Some of the farmers around here burn old hay bales (ground spoilage) in those outdoor wood boilers to heat their farms.

As for getting fry-o-lator oil the closest resturant is thirty minutes away. The next one is farther away in the opposite direction.

I do have a small mill up and running 18 inches in dia. making about thirty watts not enough to do anything with except to charge cellphones, 5 volts.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
Member # 736

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 17:19      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
How would I take a single carbon molecue and make it into an eight carbon one?

You don't.

Well, it is possible, theoretically, on paper (isn't it so nice how everything works on paper? Sometimes I wish the whole world was just blank sheets of paper, but I digress), to progressively string together carbon molecules, but the C-C bond is hard to make. You'd need to slap reactive groups onto one population of methane molecules, slap another reactive group onto the other population, make that reaction go, and keep repeating. There's a reason why people don't do it, even in fully equipped organic chemistry labs.

--------------------
And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 17:42      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
________________________ So this is why the one group is using microbes to break up longer chains into more useable lengths?

Here I was hopeing to fill a silo, lay a log (poop) in there and wait for the gasoline to come to the top of the solution. Syphon off the gas and add more grasses. Then when the desolved solids got too deep auger them out use the manure spreader. Cut some more grass.

If I remember my organic isn't octane a long snake like molecule? C8H18 what if it got into a benzene ring with two CH2s attached? would that knock in an internal combustion engine?

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
password
Geek
Member # 12442

Member Rated:
1
Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 17:58      Profile for password   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
...(isn't it so nice how everything works on paper? Sometimes I wish the whole world was just blank sheets of paper, but I digress)... [/QB]

if the whole world was blank sheets of paper the first solar flare would destroy the universe....(this part would suck) also you would be able to cut holes in reality with your scissors(this part would rule)

--------------------
no my password is not username

Posts: 108 | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

SuperFan!
Member # 4924

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted January 24, 2008 00:04      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
________________________ So this is why the one group is using microbes to break up longer chains into more useable lengths?


Didn't you know breaking stuff is easier than fixing stuff?

Though this bacteria research sounds promising as crackers (where they break haevy oil into deisel and gasoline) are very exspensive things.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
littlefish
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 966

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted January 24, 2008 01:13      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually, I'm just about to look into this for my job. But it is impractical to do on a small scale.

Firstly, the methane should be broken down to syngas (carbon monoxide hydrogen) using a nickel catalyst. This can be done through dry reforming (mixing in carbon dioxide and running around 800C) or by steam reforming. Commercially this is also done at elevated pressures. Running at atmospheric pressures causes deactivation of the catalyst through coking - laydown of carbon.
EDIT: 30-40 bar 800C ratio 2.5-4 water:methane

The syngas is then treated with a Fischer-Tropsch iron based catalyst around 400C. This will give you methane back if run at atmospheric pressure, but at elevated pressure, chain growth will occur, to give longer alkanes.

I'll post proper conditions once I've found them. My current position involves investigating the form of coking on nickel reforming catalysts using various vibrational spectroscopies.

Posts: 2421 | From: That London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted January 27, 2008 05:46      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
________________________ So lets say I make a 500 gallon weed smoothie with a poop log for the e-coli. cover the solution with water, and make a high point vent. Would I get methane?

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Dave
Geek
Member # 1977

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted January 27, 2008 18:01      Profile for Mr. Dave     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
________________________ So lets say I make a 500 gallon weed smoothie with a poop log for the e-coli. cover the solution with water, and make a high point vent. Would I get methane?

If memory serves, yeah, that's about the gist of it, as long as you also keep the slurry close to 95 deg. You'll get varying proportions of CO2, H2S and NH3, depending on the recipe, and you'll apparently be lucky to get 30 cu ft of gas per day from a 500-gal digester, but that's basically it.

I just turned up one of my books on the topic (sadly, not any of the ones with any detail) which suggests that 20 head of cattle would fill a digester with a 12,500-gal tank. The neighbour I mentioned runs 1,000 head - yipes! No wonder it's taking a while to get it running. [Eek!]

--------------------
I'm not normally like this, but then I'm not normally normal.

Posts: 193 | From: Leverkusen Institute of Paleocybernetics | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
Member # 1659

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted January 27, 2008 18:53      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
________________________ I am most interested in the E-coli that break the sugars into gasoline length molecules, Where do I get those, do they exist in nature? Are they insanely expensive?

I remember a few decades back some articles about Bacterium that ate crude oil (oil spills) and then the cleanup was sucking up the leftovers.

If this whole process is basically cold, not requireing vast amount of heat or temp. would not the savings be much larger.

If this news story is legit then the Holy grail of Cold Fusion may be possible. Well at least cold cracking of gas.

There are stories that some sewerage plants have problems with some of the new stronger detergents, in that they kill the digester bactera. I also know that at Michigan State Univ. that the cattle and milk schools had a gas release that almost killed off their herd of cows. When they started the stirring pumps nobody checked the wind direction and opened or closed the correct stacks to get the SO2 away from the herd.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged


All times are Eastern Time  
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Geek Culture Home Page

© 2015 Geek Culture

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.4.0



homeGeek CultureWebstoreeCards!Forums!Joy of Tech!AY2K!webcam